SEARCHING FOR NOAH'S ARK

An Interview with Dr. John Morris, Institute for Creation Research

First published in:
Creation Ex Nihilo 7(4):6–12
June 1985

In the early 1970's,while I was working as a civil engineer for the City of Los Angeles Public Works Department, I met several people who were involved in searching for the Ark. They were aware of my father's (Dr Henry Morris) interest in the Flood and Noah's Ark and thought I would know as much as he did. I didn't! But they shared their research with me, I helped prepare a filmstrip and manuscript on the subject, and helped raise money for another expedition to Ararat. After this I guess I knew about as much about the search for the Ark as anybody that had never gone.

When did you first climb Ararat?

In the summer of 1971 I took a tourist trip to Mt Ararat and fell in love with the mountain. In 1972 the Institute for Creation Research decided to launch an expedition. I was appointed leader and in July/August 1972 we had a group of five men on the mountain. We accomplished a great deal of work that summer and located many archaeological sites, but not the ark.

How long do such expeditions last?

The first expedition lasted six weeks, but we were probably on Mt Ararat for only two and a half weeks. Much time was spent in Governmental centres trying to get permission to climb. In 1973 we went back with an expedition that was about twice the size of the first one. I was certain we knew where the Ark was, and everything was going to be fine, but sadly we were forbidden from climbing. In 1973 only one expedition was granted permission to climb and that was the last totally sanctioned expedition until 1982. For nine years, political upheavals in Turkey prevented the granting of permits. There were several expeditions in the late seventies, but these had no official permits.

What's happened since 1982?

In 1982 Colonel James Irwin, the former astronaut, made personal contact with the President of Turkey (who was previously chief of staff) and obtained permission to climb Mt Ararat. The Government had decided to open up the mountain to exploration, as well as summit climbing by tourists. This last summer (mid-1984) several expeditions were granted permits, and many others were allowed to climb to the summit just as tourists.

Do you believe the ark is on Mt Ararat?

We have a great deal of circumstantial evidence, consisting of eye witness accounts by individuals who claim to have seen basically the same thing, namely, a long linear barge, rather rectangular in shape and sticking out of a glacial deposit, a snow bank or an avalanche debris fall. They always claim to see it on a ledge, with a cliff on one side and a drop off on the other. It has been reported in an inaccessible area, but an area that can be approached by non-technical climbers. So putting these together, similar stories coming from non-related sources with no evidence of collusion, gives us confidence that something with the size and shape of Noah's Ark is up there and worth further investigation.

But scientists have been there so often! Why haven't they found it?

Probably because the mountain is constantly changing. It lies on top of an earthquake zone. Three transcontinental fault zones meet at Mt Ararat, so it is a very active zone with continual earth movements. The mountain itself is made up of a granite core, covered by basaltic rock and volcanic ash. This gives the mountain a very weak structure which facilitates erosion and makes avalanches common.

It's a rugged mountain?

It is a very rugged mountain and there are many places in which the Ark could be hidden. Within days areas can change their appearance. I am convinced that the Ark is either covered by a glacier, or more likely covered by avalanche debris. Only under the fortuitous conditions of unusual glacier melt, or movements on the mountain that would shift these avalanche debris piles, could the Ark be seen. This would explain why the Ark has only been seen on the average, only once every 20 years. We may have even camped right on top of it! I am sure we have been within sight of it, and if it had been exposed we would have seen it.

Is climbing Ararat dangerous?

Very dangerous. Probably the single greatest danger is loose rock. We have been confronted constantly with avalanches.

In late 1984 many newspapers reported an expedition to Mt Ararat, which you were on, had found bits of the Ark. Explain what happened.

That expedition was made up of three subgroups. One from the Institute for Creation Research, one from Hi-Flight Foundation headed by Colonel Jim Irwin, and one from International Expeditions headed by Marvin Steffins. ICR had been cleared to use a helicopter that summer, but that fell through at the last moment. The overall team was not well equipped to do a climbing search on the mountain itself, nevertheless, we split up to do what we could.

The Steffins sub-group, (which included no climbers at all) went to see a geological formation that was reported to look very much like a boat, about 50 miles from Mt Ararat. This had been first seen in 1959 in aerial photographs of the area, and had been studied in 1960 and 1973 by American Scientists. It was determined in each case not to be the Ark, but to be a weird geological formation. Now when the Steffins group went to visit the site, they were accompanied by Ron Wyatt who had visited that site several times before, and was convinced in his mind that it was Noah's Ark. He convinced Steffins that the area needed more research. Samples were taken. Initially newspapers in Turkey were told that a boat-shaped formation about the size of Noah's Ark had been found on the mountains of Ararat, that might prove to be the Ark, given further research. The Turkish press embellished that report in a very unfortunate way by stating we were claiming the Ark had been found. No such claims were made. Unfortunately once they pronounced we were claiming to have found the Ark, the rock and soil samples we had taken became historic artifacts, and therefore we were viewed as smugglers. We were in real danger at that point.

Were you worried?

Steffins' group was forced to relinquish rock samples, including soil which they wanted to analyse for carbon content. That was taken away by the Turkish Government, analysed, and shown not to be the Ark. Anybody could have told them that. Our main worry was being hounded by the press, but we had no official contact from the Government.

Will this produce any negative results on searching for the Ark?

Surprisingly, in Turkish eyes the publicity that resulted was favourable to them. They would much rather have world attention on the search for the Ark than on their political problems or economic woes. Unfortunately, the world was told that the Ark was found, which wasn't true. But the Turks are now welcoming us back. In fact, the Minister of Tourism and Culture recently stated in an article, that he welcomed the researchers to come back and continue their research. He would be delighted if we would find the Ark and so allow them to develop that area of their country.

What does it cost to put an expedition on Mt Ararat?

This summer we only spent about twelve thousand dollars. In previous years of course, we had to buy equipment and food. This year, we had gear and food left over from previous years, so all we were spending was plane fares over, transportation in Turkey, and accommodation in Turkey when we weren't on the mountain, such as hotels, restaurants, and taxis. Once on the mountains we hired individuals as body guards, so the three groups together spent about twelve thousand dollars.

Why body guards?

Simply because the area is rather remote, and once on the mountain there is no established law except local village leaders. As a general rule the Turks who live on the mountain are very hospitable and warm but they do have their renegade element. And in times past we have been shot at and held at gun point many times.

You have discovered ancient monuments near Mt Ararat?

When Noah and his family came off the Ark, where did they go? Eventually they migrated south to Babel but very likely some of their descendents lived several years, maybe generations, in the Ararat vicinity. We do find remnants of an extremely ancient civilisation on both the north and south sides of the mountain. We found an altar very near an inscription which seems to be of a religious nature. We found crosses which have been designated as Sumerian. Sumerians were the ancient civilisation which sprang up about the time of Babel, so again these are very ancient remains.

Do these discoveries indicate the Ark is on Ararat?

No! Basically all that they tell us is that a very ancient civilisation lived on Mt Ararat after the Flood, and had something important enough to say, for them to have carved it into the hard volcanic rock in the area. There is a tomb near Ararat, on the facade of which are two priests sacrificing an animal. This has been designated as pre-Hittite, and the Hittites go back to Abraham's time. If this is before the Hittites, then it is extremely ancient. Some of the things we found on Mt Ararat seem to be forerunners of other civilisations and that is what we would predict from the Biblical history.

Are you going up Mt Ararat again?

After the expedition last summer, and even after our expedition in 1983 in which we climbed and searched some areas that were of interest, I am convinced that just going back to climb the mountain and search for the Ark is fruitless. The mountain is too big, too rugged, and too dangerous.

An Impossibility?

In human terms, an impossibility. I am convinced personally that I'll not go back unless we have one of two things, or maybe both. One is new information that gives us a more precise location to go and check, and secondly, we need a method to use that would give us a better chance of success, like a helicopter. The Turks have tentatively been very open to the possibility of taking a helicopter this summer, so maybe I will go back.

The Turkish Government is predominantly Muslim. What is their attitude to Noah's Ark?

In the Koran (the Muslim Holy Scriptures) reference is made to Noah and the Flood. Islamic tradition is that the Bible was true at the time of its writing, but that subsequent copies have obscured its meaning, and so they claim we really don't know what the original said. However, Noah and the Ark, as well as Adam and Eve, and many of the prophets of the Old Testament are included in the traditions of the Koran. Their specific teachings are somewhat different from Biblical teaching, but compatible in the sense that in essence they tell the same story about Noah.

Do they believe the Ark is on Mt Ararat?

The Koran mentions that the Ark landed at a place called Mt Judi. There is a mountain in Southern Turkey near the Iraqi border by that name. It is a much smaller mountain, and no one has ever claimed to see the Ark there. Interestingly enough, when we were in Turkey this last summer, we ran into a group of Turkish Professors. They have a similar "creationist" organisation and they have many scientists dedicated to the study of origins.

A Muslim Creationist organisation?

Yes, it is an Islamic apologetics group very much interested in creation work. When I told them I was involved in the search for Noah's Ark, they said, 'You are looking on the wrong mountain. The Koran says it landed on Mt Judi'. And I said, 'Yes, but some ancient research says that perhaps Ararat is the original Mt Judi.' So they went to their commentaries. They had a whole library of commentaries on the Koran and they finally concluded that Judi is a rather generic term for mountain, and that the Koran says no more than the Ark landed on a mountain. So it could mean any mountain. Once they discovered that they were very interested in our research and keen to see what evidence I had.

They were not antagonistic to Christians looking for the Ark?

No, in fact they were very supportive of it once they found that the Koran did not contradict looking for it on Mt Ararat.

If you do find the Ark, what do you think people will say?

I think you have to break the responses into several categories of people. First we must remember Christ told the Pharisees that if they didn't believe Moses (who wrote about Noah) and the Prophets they would not believe even if one rose from the dead. So we are kidding ourselves if we think that we are going to convert the world by finding Noah's Ark. But on the other hand, many people did believe because of Christ's resurrection, so it is not inappropriate to try and find evidence that would substantiate the truth of the Scriptures. We are very thankful that our faith is a reasonable faith. We do have good reasons to believe the Bible.

You take it literally when the Bible says, "Have a reason for the faith which lies within you?"

Yes, I do believe we must have reason for the hope that is within us. Christianity has to be a reasonable faith, and we should be able to articulate that faith, and the reasons for our faith. I think it is also true that many people have honest questions. They have been told in their geology and biology classes that the Bible is full of errors, and that there is no reason to believe it. They therefore have a hard time believing Christ's claim to be God, His substitutionary atonement and the resurrection. We have an obligation to answer their questions.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would not be affected by the Ark's discovery because their minds are already closed. Furthermore, they would do whatever they could to refute the evidence. I once heard a scientist say that even if we found the Ark, brought it down, put it in his backyard, took him by the hand and rubbed his nose in it, he wouldn't see it. People's minds are that closed! On a philosophical basis they have already concluded that these things are not true, so any scientific data will not convince them, they are true.

But how would such scientists explain away the discovery of the Ark?

They could hypothesise that people in the past built big ships which we didn't know about before. Also, the claim could be made that, since the Armenians lived around Mt Ararat for many years, and since they were, in 300 AD, the first nation to adopt Christianity as a national religion, they therefore were overzealous about their tradition of Poppa Noah and the Ark and built a wooden monument to their legend on Mt Ararat. So if we find the Ark, it will merely be a structure built by Armenian monks in the 5th Century.

Could such a claim be disproved?

There are ways in which we hope to counteract this charge even before it is made. I had contact with the 1974 expedition which was not allowed to climb the mountain. We had included in our expedition a micro-biologist who had done very important and impressive research in Antarctica with strata which contained micro-organisms that were frozen yet could be revived. These were organisms which were not alive in the present world as far as was known. If the Ark had been in a frozen environment for most of its history. except perhaps for a few rare weeks when it thawed, there could be portions in the Ark containing such micro-organisms. If somebody gets into the Ark, scrapes the sides of the wood, or obtains dung samples from the old animal stalls, then we could analyse it and tell which kind of animal was in which stall. That would be good evidence. I can imagine Armenian monks going up and building an ark as a monument, but to believe they would carry kangaroo dung up there is beyond credibility. To find such dung would be good documentation of an original Ark.

Also we would like to see the inside of the Ark, since it has been reported by some of the supposed eye witnesses that in one major room there is a wall full of inscriptions which appear to be day-by-day account, as if Noah was taking notes and writing up on the wall what was happening. I want to find that.

What effect would finding the Ark really have?

As regards the non-Christian, I think the influence would come mainly because the Ark itself is such a beautiful picture of Christ. God looked down on civilization at the time of the Flood and saw a very sinful civilisation in rebellion against Him, so He sent judgment. Yet in His mercy and love, He provided a way of salvation for Noah and his family. In prophecy, we see God again looking down on civilisation, promising to judge it, but again provided a method of 'salvation, Jesus Christ. By climbing on board our present day Ark, Jesus Christ, through believing on Him as our personal Saviour, we will escape judgment, and have a place in the new world, much like Noah and his family. So I am convinced that finding the Ark would focus the attention of people on Jesus Christ, and see many return to Him.

In the scientific realm there would be other implications. The evolutionary scheme is founded squarely on the assumption that by studying the present we can come to some conclusion about the past (an idea called uniformitarianism). Obviously, if there was some time in the past when there was a world-wide flood that was so totally different from anything we can comprehend today, then it's fallacy to claim we can understand the past by looking at the present. Finding Noah's Ark would be convincing evidence that the Flood did occur, so evolutionary geology would have to be abandoned. The fossils which are now used as a major proof of evolution, would have to be reinterpreted in terms of the Flood. I am convinced the discovery of the Ark would do more than any other single event to destroy the assumption of uniformitarianism, which is the basic assumption of evolution. I am convinced that finding the Ark would ring the death knell on the already fragile theory of evolution. There would no longer be any intellectual justification for belief in the godless, unscientific theory of evolution.

Do you think God is not allowing the Ark to be found?

It is an interesting speculation. Certainly an event like the discovery of Noah's Ark has, I believe, to have a particular place in God's eternal timetable. Even though there is nothing in prophecy that says the Ark must be found, there are perhaps a few hints. For example, Christ's reference to the days of Noah being similar times prior to His return. These are hints at best, and certainly not prophecy that the Ark will be found. But knowing the mountain as I do, I feel it is impossible in human terms for a wooden structure to have remained up on Mt Ararat. If it is there, it has been protected from glaciers, erosion, earthquakes, eruptions, and from Noah and his family dismantling it to use in other timber structures. It shouldn't be there, but the evidence suggests it is. If it is there, I can only presume that God has supernaturally protected it. Why would He do that? Probably to reveal it in the last days as a last call. Reminding people of the past judgment, and focusing their attention on the present day ark of salvation. Also the creation message is so critical in today's world, that this would be the single most telling blow to evolution. You can hardly imagine anything that would give more credence to the creation cause than the discovery of Noah's Ark. The Ark would certainly have newsworthiness, capturing the fancy of the world. So I suspect, if it is there God has protected it, and if He has done that then he has a plan for it.

Can other people help in the search for Noah's Ark?

Having investigated all the eyewitness accounts, I am convinced that there must be other people, in Australia or the U.S.A., who knew, or have heard of, the two Australian pilots who saw the Ark from the air and actually took photographs of it. Photographs that they showed to some American pilots during World War II. There must be someone in Australia who has those photographs and so knows where the Ark is. Such people could help us tremendously.

I am convinced also that Christians will need to support us in prayer. The only way we are going to find the Ark is for God to supernaturally remove all the road blocks to allow us to get up there, give us favour with the Turkish government, melt the glacier, move the snow, or move the rock, Only as God answers the prayers of His people will the Ark be found. I think they could also prepare themselves to use this tool in evangelism once the Ark is found. They can be ready to use the past ark of salvation to focus the attention of an unsaved world on the present day ark of salvation, Jesus Christ.